Navigating Product Leadership Through Acquisition: Lessons from Shipt and Target

In this episode, Cristina Flaschen, CEO of Pandium, speaks with Bani Malhotra, a seasoned product leader with experience at Walmart, Shipt, and Narvar. They discuss the complex realities of scaling products, leading through acquisition, and aligning teams around shared goals.

Bani’s Background and Product-Driven Mindset

Bani transitioned from investment banking and venture capital into product management. She has spent over a decade building and leading teams, including serving as the first product manager at Shipt during its $550M acquisition by Target. Her approach combines clear communication, deep context, and a strong focus on solving the right problems with the right metrics.

Acquisition, Alignment, and Long-Term Thinking

At Shipt, Bani led the integration of its same-day delivery platform into Target’s ecosystem. The project involved technical re-architecture, stakeholder alignment, and careful cultural navigation. Bani and her team made early decisions to build a retailer-agnostic infrastructure, allowing for long-term flexibility while preserving the values of Shipt’s marketplace.

Building Trust Across Teams and Cultures

Bani shares her approach to leading cross-functional teams through major change. Her framework—credibility, communication, and context—helped her build trust across both Shipt and Target. From navigating concerns around cannibalization to advocating for shoppers on the ground, she focused on building alignment without compromising core principles.

Using Metrics to Drive Clarity

Bani emphasizes the importance of grounding teams in clear, outcome-focused metrics. She shares lessons on defining success, phasing launches to reduce risk, and staying focused on quality over vanity KPIs. Metrics, she explains, can unify teams and reduce emotional friction in high-stakes environments.

Leading with Precision

This episode offers practical insights for anyone leading through complexity, whether during M&A, product expansion, or organizational change. Bani’s perspective on product leadership is execution-oriented, making this a valuable listen for product and partnership leaders at any stage of growth.

For more insights on product, integrations, and SaaS ecosystems, visit www.pandium.com.

Transcript

Cristina Flaschen (00:00)

Hi, everyone. This is Christina. Thanks for listening to our podcast between product and partnerships. If you're listening for the first time, we talk about the challenges and what it takes to build integrations, partnerships, and SaaS platforms. We talk to leaders working on these problems to learn about trends and how they're navigating the space. Today, we're so excited to have Bani Malhotra with us. She is a product leader who has a ton of experience in e-commerce, having spent time at Walmart, Shipt, and Narvar.

Bani, can you give us a little bit about your background and a little introduction to yourself?

Bani Malhotra (00:33)

Of course. Thank you to Christina and Pandium for having me and hello to everybody watching. I'm Bani Malhotra and I transitioned into product management after an early career in mergers and acquisition, investment banking and venture capital. I've been in product management for over a decade now and spent the last five plus years in leadership roles. So like Christina said, I've primarily been focusing on

Direct to consumer digital strategy in retail, telehealth and grocery industries. I've had the pleasure and the privilege of being an early member of three high growth startups that were successfully acquired and playing a key part in scaling e-commerce products at Walmart, the Fortune One company. In my most recent role at Walmart, ⁓ led product teams and portfolios across personalization, site experience, site tooling, and

Cristina Flaschen (01:18)

Street Synchro at Walmart. I led product teams and portfolios across personalization, site experience, site tooling,

Bani Malhotra (01:28)

strategic projects. live in the Bay Area with my husband and two little kids. And outside of my passion for product, I really love dancing, reading mystery novels, and coaching women in tech.

Cristina Flaschen (01:28)

and strategic projects. I live in the Bay Area with my husband and two little kids. And outside of my passion for product, I really love dancing, reading mystery novels, and reading books.

Bani Malhotra (01:41)

So really looking forward to this conversation and sharing insights with all of you.

Cristina Flaschen (01:46)

What kind of dancing? Any specific kind or type?

Bani Malhotra (01:49)

I love

hip hop. I've learned salsa. I've learned Indian classical and freestyle. So any Bollywood, anything that I can move to, I love just moving and expressing myself through dance.

Cristina Flaschen (01:55)

So any Bollywood, anything that I can do, I love. love speaking and expressing myself.

Oh man, you're going to have to send me a video. I'm sure there's videos out there. Maybe I'll Google it. We'll see. Well, thank you so much for the intro. So it sounds like you've been with.

Bani Malhotra (02:05)

Hahaha.

Cristina Flaschen (02:14)

a few companies that have gone through acquisition and that's always a, it can take a lot of work, right, to integrate two companies together. So you were at Shipt when it was acquired by Target. I'm sure there were challenges there. Maybe if you could tell us a little bit about what Shipt did or does and what you did for them. And then we'd love to know sort of what some of those challenges were and we can dive deeply into one specific project if you like.

Bani Malhotra (02:21)

Yes. Yes.

Yes.

Wonderful. So I'm glad you picked Shipt. I joined Shipt in its early days as the first product manager and as the head of product. We were still a very lean main team in San Francisco and a few of us were out there in Alabama where our CEO started and founded the company. And for all of us who aren't as familiar with Target or Shipt, is obviously a retail giant, the seventh, in fact, largest in the US.

Cristina Flaschen (02:55)

CEO started and founded the company. And for all of us who aren't as familiar with Target or Shift, Target is the retail giant, the seventh, in fact, largest in the US,

Bani Malhotra (03:07)

sells a variety of products, toys, electronics, groceries, apparel and such. And at the time of acquisition, Shipt was the underdog in online grocery service competing with Instacart and the others. when the $550 million acquisition

Cristina Flaschen (03:07)

sells a variety of products, device electronics, and such. At the time of acquisition, Shift was the underdog in online grocery service. The others, when the $550 million

Bani Malhotra (03:25)

happened, it obviously felt great to all of us. We had been working hard and this felt like a big celebration. also think that

Cristina Flaschen (03:30)

felt like a big celebration. Also think that

when you are a part of the company that's fever-fired, there is a little bit of anxiety and maybe nervousness that kind of is in the mix along with all the happy and exciting emotions.

Bani Malhotra (03:34)

when you are a part of the company that's being acquired, there is a little bit of anxiety ⁓ and maybe nervousness that kind of ⁓ is in the mix along with all the happy and exciting emotions and,

you know, just the anxiety of what to expect next, of possible change to culture, to leadership, priorities, team, structures, just the uncertainty of it all. I remember, ⁓ you know, some of us feeling that ⁓

Cristina Flaschen (03:49)

It was just anxiety of what to expect next, to possible change, to culture, to leadership, priorities, team, structures, just the uncertainty of all that I remember. Some of us feeling that

in some shape or form. But post-acquisition is one of the best things that I remember was that Shim really wanted to hold onto it and protect the...

Bani Malhotra (04:04)

in some shape or form, but post-acquisitions, one of the best things that I remember was that Shipt really wanted to hold onto and protect the

Cristina Flaschen (04:15)

the high growth base in scrappiness and resourcefulness and the unique company culture that has really helped JPA Company and has led to that point. Target actually encouraged that. So I think that that served both companies really well

Bani Malhotra (04:15)

high growth pace and scrappiness and resourcefulness ⁓ and the unique company culture that had really helped shape our company and bring us to that point. And Target actually encouraged it. And so I think that that served both companies really well.

Cristina Flaschen (04:32)

and one of the things that I took away from what I think was a success is the way in which we're going to be able this. How big was shipped when they were acquired, employee-wise?

Bani Malhotra (04:32)

And one of the things that I took away from what I think was a successful merger of two companies.

I think that, and I hope I don't get this wrong, because it's been a few years, less than a thousand for sure. I don't remember if it was 600, 700. My memory is failing me. But we were not a very big, you know, team of people at the time of my position.

Cristina Flaschen (05:00)

Yeah, yeah, I'm

curious what, I guess what parts of the shipped product were maintained or kind of how did that shake out?

Bani Malhotra (05:09)

Yes,

yes. So I think that the big integration that followed post-acquisition was the same day next day delivery offering for Target. So if you read up on the acquisition too, you'll find that Target acquired Ship, know, it was a strategic long-term bet, but primarily to integrate Ship's same day next day shopping service.

Cristina Flaschen (05:18)

same day next day delivery offering for Target. So if you read up on the acquisition, will find that Target acquired SHIP. It was a strategic long-term bet, but primarily to integrate SHIP's same day next day shopping service

and leverage this amazing, incredible up-going

Bani Malhotra (05:34)

and leverage this amazing, incredible, going above

and beyond fleet of shoppers that Shift had hired and trained over the years. So post-acquisition, this service was now to be ⁓ integrated directly into the Target ecosystem so that target.com, which is the website of the Target digital apps could offer same day next day delivery in addition to shipping to your house and pick up from the store.

Cristina Flaschen (05:39)

So post acquisition, this service was now to be...

So that target.com, which is the website of the Target Digital Apps, could offer same day next day delivery in addition to shipping to your house and pick up from the store.

Bani Malhotra (06:03)

And doing this for Target meant expanding into a whole new fulfillment method. Imagine getting something from Target in the next hour, you

Cristina Flaschen (06:03)

And doing this with Target meant expanding into a whole new world. how do you imagine getting something like that in the next hour?

Bani Malhotra (06:11)

know, or the same day. And for Shipwreck also meant doing a lot more and building a lot more expertise than just delivering groceries and essentials, which until that point had been, so there hadn't been a lot of foray into general merchandise, things like toys, baby care, kitchenware, you know, things like that.

Cristina Flaschen (06:12)

or the same day. And for Shipwreck also meant doing a lot more and building a lot more expertise than just delivering groceries and essentials. Until that point, had been so there hadn't been a lot of foray into general merchandise, things like toys, baby care, kitchenware, know, things like that.

Bani Malhotra (06:33)

and more that were offered at Target. So the project

Cristina Flaschen (06:35)

the project.

Bani Malhotra (06:38)

really was merging this capability that Shipt had grown and built into this mode and embedded into the Target ecosystem that was a running full-fledged, large enterprise, retail enterprise, and marry those two things between the two companies. it was a massive undertaking.

Cristina Flaschen (06:57)

It wasn't massive undertaking,

Bani Malhotra (06:59)

but it was also a lot of fun.

Cristina Flaschen (06:59)

but it was also a lot of fun. Yeah, it's interesting. I was just chatting with someone from, product from another big box retailer who shall remain nameless. And they were articulating some of the challenge of trying to marry, as you said, like the in-store, the warehouse, kind of ship from warehouse. And then they were talking about some like viral type of toys actually and how it was

when they were preparing to be able to allow people to do in-store pickup, buy in the store, buy online and have it shipped, and then also do this last mile kind of thing, that it was a really interesting project because for that product, a lot of them were, it was like disparate systems, right? It's like not every system was talking to one centralized place to be able to make sure that inventory for a viral product was gonna be there. So I'm curious if you guys had a similar thing. I don't know how Target's.

Bani Malhotra (07:33)

Yeah.

So.

Yes.

Cristina Flaschen (07:55)

stuff works, but.

Bani Malhotra (07:56)

Yes.

Yes,

I'm just going to share a little bit of context and then tackle the question you asked directly. it was a massive undertaking, as you'd imagine this one to be. It was marrying what we had, but also building and actually relaying some of the foundation that we had technically. We actually scoped and built.

eight plus microservices, each doing a particular part of the shipped tech infrastructure and basically taking that and exploding into microservices. So, you know, every job, every communication between the two systems would be simpler and more efficient and faster and all of that. So technically that's the route we went. We kind of exploded the stack into different microservices and then built it for scale, which is

you know, just to touch on what I think was done well and some of the challenges we kind of had to overcome. The technical, I think, decisions that we made had to be made and the product decisions that we made along the way were to also equip SHIPPED to offer this offering as a service, not just to Target, but to other retailers. ⁓

Cristina Flaschen (08:53)

The technical decisions that we made had to be made and the product decisions that we made were to also be shifted to offer this offering as a service not just to Target but to other retailers.

Bani Malhotra (09:10)

you know, just to give context, Shipt was a marketplace. It was a marketplace when it got acquired. So we had the Myers of the world and the Coscos of the world and the Krogers of the world. And then Shipt got acquired by Target. So not only did that mean that as our shoppers, the Shipt shoppers started to do more of Target orders that weren't Shipt orders, but were fulfilled by the shopper fleet at Shipt, how do we protect and advocate for the

Cristina Flaschen (09:10)

know, just to give context, ship was a market place. It was a market place when it got acquired. So we had the Myers of the world, the Cospas of the world, the Provers of the world. And then ship got acquired by Target. So not only did that mean that as our shoppers, the ship shoppers started to do more of Target orders, that weren't ship orders but were fulfilled by the shopper. How do we protect and advocate for

the ship shoppers?

Bani Malhotra (09:39)

the ship shoppers

success and making sure that there is enough in this to make it matter to them. Also, how do you ensure that ship's marketplace remains sacrosanct, the work that had been done until that point, the partnerships that had been created until that point? How do you preserve those while you are in the process of being acquired and building this?

Cristina Flaschen (09:54)

ships that had been created. How do you preserve those while you are in the process of being acquired and building this

Bani Malhotra (10:03)

⁓ ecosystem of services. So the way we decided to steer the ship was to actually build for a retailer agnostic integration. We

Cristina Flaschen (10:04)

ecosystem of services? So the way we decided to steer the ship was to actually build for a retailer-agnostic integration.

Bani Malhotra (10:17)

were building for Target, but some of the decisions that we made along the way were to equip us if we should need to in the future.

Cristina Flaschen (10:27)

to expand

Bani Malhotra (10:29)

to expand this beyond target. So we made a lot of those longer term decisions which actually helped us in the future. But even beyond that, it was a complex integration for us. ⁓ On the ship side, you were moving beyond a lot of the groceries and essentials into the world of toys

Cristina Flaschen (10:30)

the sea on that. So we've made a lot of those longer term decisions which actually helped us in the future. even beyond that, it was a complex integration for us. On the ship side, you you were moving beyond a lot of the groceries and messages into the world of like,

Bani Malhotra (10:50)

and what have you in general merchandise. We were as part of the ship team.

Cristina Flaschen (10:53)

We were as part of the ship team.

Bani Malhotra (10:58)

I was the DRI on the project, the Directly Responsible Individual, working with, know, our team was working with the SVPs at Target and leadership. How do you advocate for what you think is right when you're working with the company that, you know, ⁓ has acquired you? And so there was a lot of like cultural and technical complexity

Cristina Flaschen (10:58)

I was the DRI on the project, the director responsible individual working with, our team was working with the SVDs at Target and leadership. How do you advocate for what you think is right when you're working with the company that has acquired you? so there was a lot of cultural and technical complexity.

Bani Malhotra (11:21)

to it. The category expansion, preserving the ship shoppers.

Cristina Flaschen (11:21)

the Capita's Mansion, preserving the ship shoppers,

Bani Malhotra (11:26)

culture and doing right by them, the tech stack and building for the future, keeping in mind that Shipp was a marketplace at that point, ⁓ protecting our mode in some sense. So all of those were kind of aspects that needed to play out and had to be thought through.

Cristina Flaschen (11:26)

culture and doing right by them, the tech stack and building for the future, keeping in mind that ship was a marketplace at that point, protecting our mode in some sense. So all of those were kind of aspects that needed to play out and had to be thought through.

I'm curious on that note, which is sort of interpersonal, it's commercial and interpersonal, how, if you have any tips navigating what you had to do. And I ask because I think a lot of our listeners, especially product folks, work at companies that maybe are doing the upmarket transition. It's like we're going from SMBs to enterprise. And when you're dealing with stakeholders, even if they're a customer or you're a vendor or whatever it is, or a partner,

there just can be some pretty strong cultural differences depending on the size of that company, where they're based, how long they've been around. And I've been through it a number of times. I find it really fascinating to watch a smaller company or a newer company interact with these big guys. But I'm curious, from your perspective, especially because at that time you were...

Bani Malhotra (12:27)

Yeah.

Cristina Flaschen (12:32)

an employee sort of a both, right? And you want to make sure that you're keeping aligned with the goals of the parent company, but then also your own users that I'm sure you love. So yeah, I'm curious if you have any tips, like maybe not, but.

Bani Malhotra (12:39)

Yes. Yes, yes.

Yeah,

no, I think you a hit a really good point. And when I was navigating this, there were many points in times when, you know, and this is one of the cultural aspects of projects that that are of this nature, where it's not just a technical integration, it's also some, in some sense, cultural melding, you're also kind of leading through change. here,

Cristina Flaschen (12:57)

of projects that are of this nature, where it's not just the technical integration, it's also some, in some sense, cultural melding, you're also kind of through change. And here,

Bani Malhotra (13:11)

You were not just leading through change. was a massive undertaking that involved a ton of really smart, talented, opinionated ⁓ people and leaders from both the companies.

Cristina Flaschen (13:12)

you're not just leading through change, it was a massive undertaking that involved a ton of really smart, talented, opinionated people and leaders from both the companies.

Bani Malhotra (13:23)

But beyond that, were also, there was a deep undercurrent of concern, I'd say, where some of the shipped employees felt like we might be cannibalizing our own business.

Cristina Flaschen (13:25)

So there was a deep undercurrent of concern, I'd say, where some of the shift employees felt like we might be cannibalizing our own business.

Bani Malhotra (13:38)

And just to add a little bit of context here for the listeners, what we were essentially doing was to use our own fleet to take orders to deliver for target.com. So orders that were initiated not on Shipt, but on target.com, not on the Shipt app, but on the Target apps. And so as you would imagine, and we are navigating through the acquisition,

Cristina Flaschen (13:39)

And just to add a little bit of context here for the listeners, what we were essentially doing was to use our own feet to take orders to deliver for target.com. So orders that were initiated not on the shift, but on target.com, not on the shift app, but on the target apps.

you would imagine, we are navigating through the acquisition,

Bani Malhotra (14:05)

the little bit of uncertainty that comes with the early side of just post-acquisition, but also this undercurrent of concern of some type, some legit and some not, but that ship might be cannibalizing its own business. And I remember that being one of the hardest aspects of this integration. ⁓

Cristina Flaschen (14:06)

the little bit of uncertainty that comes with the early side of this post-acquisition, but also this undercurrent of concern of some type, some legit and some not, but the chip might be cannibalizing us. And I remember that being one of the hardest aspects of this integration.

Bani Malhotra (14:28)

I remember sitting in, you know,

multiple times rooms with stakeholders from the operation teams or other functions, helping them kind of navigate through change and leading through change as product managers essentially have to do is never easy. Especially if there's a product pivot like it was for Target or a new product offering like it was for Ship.

I think it takes a lot of resilience when I look back. I made my fair share of ⁓ mistakes and had misses in communication, et cetera. But when I look back in hindsight, it such an amazing learning experience because what ⁓ helped us deliver this on time and be the successful integration that it was, it cost billions of dollars for Target Now is I think belief

Cristina Flaschen (14:58)

takes a lot of resilience when I look back. I made my fair share of mistakes and weaknesses, communication, et cetera. But when I look back and find something that was such an amazing learning experience, because what's, you know.

Bani Malhotra (15:27)

that we were doing right by the companies, that we were doing, making all the right decisions for our shopper fleet. Like we advocated for tipping. There was to be no integration launch if tipping for shoppers didn't exist. Things like that. Took a lot of resilience ⁓ and it took a lot of being laser focused, not...

Cristina Flaschen (15:35)

like we advocated for tipping. There was to be no integration launch if tipping for shoppers didn't exist. Things like that. It took a lot of resilience. And it took a lot of being laser focused,

not personally emotional or investing emotions, but being very, very laser focused on metrics and goals.

Bani Malhotra (15:52)

personally emotional or investing emotions, but being very, very laser focused on metrics and goals.

So when you break things down into milestones, when you attach things to metrics, you're also able to rally the people who may be half convinced or not as convinced along you because it starts to make sense. So when you're speaking to a large audience and sometimes you feel like you're building the aircraft midair,

Cristina Flaschen (16:00)

So when you break things down in milestones, when you attach things to metrics, you're also able to rally the people who make maybe half the business or not as much as the ones are long-term, because it starts to make sense. So when you're speaking to a large audience and sometimes you feel like you're building the aircraft with air,

Bani Malhotra (16:21)

Something that helped me was believing in the project, having empathy for all of these different thoughts and diversity of stakeholders, ⁓

Cristina Flaschen (16:21)

something that helped me was believing in the project, having empathy for all of these different parts and diversity of stakeholders,

Bani Malhotra (16:30)

but also being very metrics and goal-oriented and reiterating it over and over and over again. I think that really helped me personally navigate, especially when we were in that ⁓ situation of, what does this mean for SHIPT? And now you are...

Cristina Flaschen (16:39)

navigate, especially when we live in that situation of hate, like what does this mean for Shep? And now you are

the person who is doing this for targets. you are doing this to Shep. And we really hope to again make it a very

Bani Malhotra (16:48)

the person who is doing this for Target, so you are doing this to ⁓ ship and really to again make it a ⁓

thoughtful, empathetic conversation and to ground things on evidence. So for example, things like,

Cristina Flaschen (17:04)

So for example, things like

Bani Malhotra (17:09)

When we did, we did it in a staggered phase. That would be another tip that I would share. ⁓

Cristina Flaschen (17:09)

when we did it in a staggered phase, that would be another tip that I would share.

Bani Malhotra (17:16)

is when you think something is risky and complex, which massive undertakings usually are, staggering them out in a way makes the launch actually, it doesn't slow you down. It didn't slow us down in this case, but it actually gave us so many learnings. we actually were able to preempt a lot of the, and mitigate a lot of the risks because we did it in a smaller blast radius.

Cristina Flaschen (17:16)

is when you think something is risky and impoverished, which massive undertakings usually are, staggering them out in a way that's not true.

Yeah, it also helps

with the confidence, right? Like if you see like little things working.

Bani Malhotra (17:45)

It helps with the confidence. Exactly.

And so to tie this back to the cultural piece, also the cultural navigation aspect also, using that staggered launch helped me build confidence. Because then you could show metrics, you could show the impact that it was having in those few markets. And those were some of our largest markets. And it started to build confidence. So I think that a lot of communication, a lot of empathy helped.

Cristina Flaschen (17:58)

So then you could show metrics, could show the impact that it was having in those few markets, and those were some of our largest markets, and it started to build confidence. So I think that a lot of communication, a lot of community helped,

Bani Malhotra (18:14)

and helps in such integration projects.

Cristina Flaschen (18:14)

and helped in such integration.

100 % agree with you on doing like phased launches and you know, you can maybe have one big splashy go live, but having like a lot of small ones leading into that also helps keep you sane too and like the people on the steering committee, right? ⁓ It's interesting too, like I feel like when a lot of these large, larger kind of older quote unquote or not digital first companies acquire startups, part of it is that they...

Bani Malhotra (18:28)

leading up to it. ⁓ yes, yes, yes, yes.

Yes.

Cristina Flaschen (18:43)

want to bring that like energy and that agility and like the speed and all of that to their technology arm. And sometimes the, in my experience, the folks on the ground.

maybe are not as into it as leadership. It's like, hey, we're gonna bring in this new team of people. They're gonna get things rolling. It's gonna be really fun. like, you see on TV, these companies move fast, break things. But then you've also got folks that maybe have been working at this company for a long time, and they kind of have this, they have a routine, and they know what they're doing. I'm curious if using metrics helped you get around that and...

Bani Malhotra (19:07)

Right.

All

Cristina Flaschen (19:23)

I think it's a shift from thinking potentially about output, like how much work am I doing today, versus the outcome. And sometimes the output can be a lot less to get the same outcome, ⁓ depending on what you're working on it and the tooling that you use. I'm curious, also that's a cultural thing, how you navigated that and working with some of those teams.

Bani Malhotra (19:23)

Hmm.

Yes.

Yes, I have to say, I am still friends with my partners in crime tech design product at Target. They've all, know, some have moved around, some have still continue to work at Target. And one of the reasons for that for that really strong friendship today is the strong collaboration that we had then. I will say it was we also got a little bit lucky in that

Cristina Flaschen (19:54)

Awesome.

Bani Malhotra (20:11)

there was a team of product and engineering and design that was assembled between, you know, much leaner on the ship side, slightly bigger on the target side, where we started from a position of trust. That was the way we laid the groundwork. We kind of built trust by giving trust first.

Cristina Flaschen (20:30)

kind of build trust by giving trust first

Bani Malhotra (20:34)

and expected best intentions from each other. So when I would speak to my partner in crime at Target and advocate for X or he would do the same for Y, I would sit down and listen versus wait to respond and push back. And I think it goes back to the first principles of collaboration and cross-functional alignment and those pieces.

Cristina Flaschen (20:34)

and expected best intentions from each other. So when I would speak to my partner in crime and target and advocate for X, or he would do the same thing, I would sit down and listen to wait to respond and push back. And I think it goes back to the first principles of collaboration and cross-functional alignment and those voices.

Bani Malhotra (20:59)

But

At the end of the day, we were grounding ourselves in metrics and success. Ultimately, the team at Target, the DRIs at Target, and us, we were aligned ⁓ to the same goal. And so I think that really helped me, and I think alludes to kind of the point that you were making is I have always found that staying focused on metrics and leaning into metrics-driven leadership ⁓

Cristina Flaschen (21:01)

the end of the day, were drowning ourselves in metrics of success. Ultimately, the team at Target, the DRIs at Target, and us, we were aligned to the same goal. And so, I think that really helped me, I think it leads to kind of the point that you were making, is I have always found that staying focused on metrics and leaning into metrics to build leadership.

Bani Malhotra (21:30)

has helped. And I think it's something that we should continuously model for our teams and the broader org integration or not is because what you're doing essentially is you're shifting the price from how much effort is being put in, whether an artifact has been produced, whether a presentation was done or not, whether a meeting was held or not to did you move the chosen metric of success up into the right.

Cristina Flaschen (21:31)

and I think it's something that we should start doing in a small group.

is because what you're doing essentially is you're shifting the price from how much effort is being put in, whether an artifact has been produced, whether a presentation was done or not, whether a meeting was held or not. Did you move the frozen measure of success up into the

right place? And this is not just a mindset leadership.

Bani Malhotra (21:59)

And this is not just a mindset leadership

change or a team management change, but also an ethos change of how you measure success as a team. And I have always found that it serves ⁓ the team, the business and the customers, the stakeholders better because you have this common ground. So it helped in the integration project as well, because we were looking at the same things.

Cristina Flaschen (22:05)

also an in-house change of how you measure success as a team. And I have always found that it serves the team, the business, and the customers, the stakeholders, the people.

So it helped in the integration project as well. Because we were looking at the same things.

Bani Malhotra (22:26)

reschedules, fraud inside the store, know, what's the feedback from the shoppers? What's the feedback from the in-store operations team, et cetera, et cetera. So we were all aligned. And this means that you are, I spoke about building the flight while mid-air. Metrics is not something that you, ⁓ you know, do all of

Cristina Flaschen (22:26)

Schedules, brought inside the store, what's the feedback of the shoppers, what's the feedback of the in-store operations, et cetera, et cetera. So we were all aligned. And this means that you are, I spoke about building the flight while we did. Metrics is not something that you do ⁓ all of.

Bani Malhotra (22:48)

that kind of mid-flight. That is something that needs serious thought. You really need to sit down and say,

Cristina Flaschen (22:49)

that kind of bit of life. That is something that needs serious thought. You really need to sit down and

see what defines success for this thing and work backwards from that. If I have the time, I'll give you an example.

Bani Malhotra (22:56)

what defines success for this thing and work backwards from that. If I have the time, I want to give a small example.

At Walmart, and I love to give this example because it's so simple and kind of clarifies the point, not just being metrics driven, but focusing on the right metrics. That is the key to the puzzle because

Cristina Flaschen (23:08)

example because it's so simple and kind clarifies the point. Not just being metrics-driven, but focusing on the right metrics. That is the key to the puzzle. Because

Bani Malhotra (23:22)

One of the products I led was the product details page. So when you go to walmart.com or any e-commerce

Cristina Flaschen (23:23)

one of the products I led was, you know,

Bani Malhotra (23:28)

site, the page that gives you all the specifications about the fridge you want to buy or the electronics that you're looking at, and it allows you to add to cart. So it has all the information that you need about the product. So if you were to focus on the metric of the simple add to cart, it makes logical sense. You're helping people.

Cristina Flaschen (23:28)

the the page that gives you all the specifications about the fridge you're going to buy or the electronics that you're looking at and it allows you to act to cart. So it has all the information that you need about the product. So if you were to focus on the metric of the simple act to cart, it makes logical sense. You're helping people

Bani Malhotra (23:52)

look at the product you are helping them add to cart and move along their way.

Cristina Flaschen (23:52)

look at the product, you're helping them act to cart, you know, move along with

Bani Malhotra (23:57)

But when you give it more purpose to what that page is supposed to do, what's the mission of the page? What is the problem you're trying to solve with that touch point? It's that you're helping people make a confident decision. Not just any decision, a confident, well thought out decision, which means

Cristina Flaschen (24:01)

to what that pH is supposed to do. What's the mission of the pH? What is the problem you're trying to solve with that touch point? It's that you're helping people make a confident decision. Not just any decision, a confident, well thought out.

decision which means

Bani Malhotra (24:20)

that adding to cart may not be the only metric or the right metric to chase. The quality of the add to cart makes sense. Why? So if you remove the price of a product or the shipping speed of a product, your add to carts on the product details page go up. But that doesn't necessarily increase conversion because when they reach cart,

Cristina Flaschen (24:20)

that adding to cart may not be the only metric or the right metric to chase. The quality of the add to cart makes sense. Why? So if you remove the price of the product or the shipping speed of the product, your add to carts or the product retail wage go up. But that doesn't necessarily increase the proportion because when they reach cart...

Bani Malhotra (24:45)

they see, my God, this is going to reach me in eight days, not two.

Cristina Flaschen (24:46)

they see, oh my god, this is going to eight days, not

two. So you have improved the so-called measure of success on your product, but that's not the right metric for the customer or the business. So when you focus on the quality of the advocate, which is, was it a confident decision, which is the problem you're meant to solve with that touch point? So that's a good example, a small example of being measured.

Bani Malhotra (24:49)

So you have improved the so-called measure of success on your product, but that's not the right metric for the customer or the business. ⁓ So when you focus on the quality of the add to cart, is, was it a confident decision, which is the problem you're meant to solve with that touch point. So that's a good example, a small example of being metrics

driven, but also

really being intentional of what metrics should guide that process.

Cristina Flaschen (25:23)

I love that example and I think it reminds me of what we think about here at Pandem is like the North Star, which is like the big, like what is the thing that we are trying to do? And then, you know, if in my opinion, if you have something like that, you can make little North Stars, right? Like within individual products, but always look back to that like

hey, we've gotten really in the weeds, but are we actually increasing conversion and decreasing returns or whatever it is, right? And there's all kinds of metrics to your point that you can measure that don't speak to time on page. I'm like, is having more time on page actually better? Are people confused by being on the page? All of these types of things. And I think that's what makes a really good PM, right? Is someone that can holistically look at these things and...

Bani Malhotra (25:48)

Yes. Yes.

Yes.

Cristina Flaschen (26:09)

I think a secondary effect, I'm curious if this was the same for you, is that if you have this like stated goal that doesn't necessarily to your point have like rigid metrics associated with it, it's just like this big goal. If you start to go down the wrong path and you see that like you're deviating from that goal, it's easy to say like, hey, we're gonna pull the plug on this or like we need to really scrap this or we need to make a real big reset because there's this external thing that like you could point to. Like it's not that.

Bani Malhotra (26:16)

Thank

Yes.

Cristina Flaschen (26:37)

I, Christina, as the PM made the wrong choice when I designed this product or whatever, it's that it's gotten too far from this goal that we all agree that we have. And I think that gives, it allows people to like back away from things that aren't working in a way that is less emotional, if I may. And I'm curious if you, I'm just riffing, but I'm curious if you've had a similar experience.

Bani Malhotra (26:46)

Yes.

with.

No, absolutely. think what, at least for me, building on what you said, metrics grounds you in the right problems to solve. And that allows you to pick the most efficient solution to solve it. Not just the right solution, but the most efficient solution to solve it. When you are, for example,

Cristina Flaschen (27:13)

Not just the right solution but the most.

example,

just building on the, when we figured out the problem statement is the quality of the active card. We fixed our and changed and rolled our roadmap and our strategy in service of that metric. and it allowed us to then experiment and pick the right solutions. So when you break the metric down, say, okay, quality of active card, what is it?

Bani Malhotra (27:21)

just building on the add to cart. When we figured out the problem statement is the quality of the add to cart, we fixed and changed and evolved our roadmap and our strategy in service of that metric then. And it allowed us to then experiment and pick the right solutions. So when you break the metric down, you say, okay,

quality of add to cart, what does it mean

to our customers? It means X, Y, and Z. So I think you are spot on. It actually allows you to disassociate from the solution, but to stay grounded in the problem because the problem is directly the efficacy of the solution is the metric. How well you're solving the problem is the metric.

Cristina Flaschen (27:56)

Yeah,

that is success, right? If you understand the problem, solving the problem should be the...

Bani Malhotra (28:12)

Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. And it shifts

the focus from how good is a solution to does it solve the problem and how well it solves the problem. And that's where I think being very intentional and being very proactive with measures of success, with being goal oriented really helps. It also helps with cross-functional conversations and alignments and things like that.

Cristina Flaschen (28:17)

shifts the focus from how good is the solution to does it solve the problem and how well it solves the problem. that's where I think being very intentional and being very proactive with measures of success, with being goal oriented ⁓ really helps. It also helps with cross-functional conversations and alignments and things like

that.

I love what you said about efficiency too, because I feel like that the most efficient solution may not be like the coolest or the most fun. I've worked in tech long enough and have worked with a lot of engineers that I feel like there are some folks and product people too that like. I have an impulse to reinvent a wheel just because like it would be cool to do that. And like, maybe you get an incremental value for like a ton of effort. And I'm like, yeah, cool. Like that might be slightly better, but that's going to take 12 weeks versus you

Bani Malhotra (28:49)

Yes. Yes.

Yes.

Yes.

Cristina Flaschen (29:10)

something off the shelf that's going to take three hours, like what is actually the right path there? And I think there are times where you reinvent that wheel because you need something different, but the efficiency and making those trade-offs of like this is like maybe slightly not as good but is way faster, is going to get us there with a year faster, like that I think also makes a great PM, is like being able to advocate for those choices. And to your point, it's also interesting because I think there's

Bani Malhotra (29:31)

Yes.

Cristina Flaschen (29:38)

not competing priorities, like everybody wants stuff to get done, but some departments want stuff to get done much faster than other departments care about. And I'm curious, like when you think about the cross-functional alignment, I'm just thinking about where I've always sat, like in between the CRO and the CTO. And it's like, on the one side, you want something really, really quality, and on the other side, you want something really, really fast, and trying to kind of figure out how to manage all of the priorities and also still deliver something that I was proud of was always an exercise in.

charm, think, to some extent. I'm curious what your experience is there with working with different teams.

Bani Malhotra (30:12)

Yes, yes, I think one of the most important aspects of product management is to be able to engage in a line and manage cross-functional partnerships because we kind of right smack in the middle of marketing and engineering and design and analytics and leadership and up and across and down and diagonal all sorts of way possible.

Cristina Flaschen (30:27)

Mm-hmm.

Bani Malhotra (30:37)

you're interacting with so many people across the board. And when you're working, what I found, working in a large enterprise like Walmart, it's even more important to do this aspect of your job well, because you have that many more stakeholders and that much more hierarchy and those many more teams within product and outside of product. And the decision process involves a lot more people and by association ⁓ involves a lot more process. so

Cristina Flaschen (30:43)

like Walmart, it's even more important to do this aspect of your job well because you have that many more stakeholders and that much more hierarchy and those many more teams within product and outside of product and the decision process involves a lot more people and by association involves a lot more processing.

Bani Malhotra (31:06)

⁓ I think this is such an important part of ⁓

Cristina Flaschen (31:06)

I think this is such an important part of

Bani Malhotra (31:11)

just the jobs that we do and really leading your product to success in a way. And I kind of default to these, what I think are first principles, but what I call my kind of three Cs of cross-functional alignment, credibility, context, and communication. I've kind of categorized every...

tip-in tool that I have into one of these three buckets when it comes to cross-functional alignment. And credibility is essentially, do I have the subject matter expertise? And I always push my team to do the same, is to be the person who knows their product better than anybody else in the org. ⁓ If you don't dog food your own products, if you don't listen in on customer calls, if you don't meet customers, if you don't understand your app reviews,

Cristina Flaschen (31:34)

when it comes to cross-functional alignment. Credibility is essentially, do I have the subject matter expertise? And I always push my goal to do the same, is to be the person who knows their product better than anybody else in the world. ⁓ If you don't talk to your own products, you don't listen to your

You don't understand the quantitative data. You are not a subject matter expert. And that expertise allows you to build gut instinct and subject matter expertise about your progress. it also builds trust and credibility through your work with your cross-functional partners. Trust.

Bani Malhotra (32:00)

If you don't understand the quantitative data, you are not a subject matter expert. And that expertise allows you to build gut instinct and subject matter expertise about your products, but it also builds trust and credibility through your work with your cross-functional partners. Trust

is almost a prerequisite to influencing without authority. And so I think that's one.

Cristina Flaschen (32:20)

is almost a prerequisite to influencing without authority. And so I think that's

one. Building credibility, and it means a lot of hard work on your end, diligence, understanding your product, deep understanding of things related to your products. The second is communication. As PMs, you have to be amazing at communication, whether it's a massive integration project like the Ship and Target one, or even just

Bani Malhotra (32:28)

building credibility and it means a lot of hard work on your end, due diligence, understanding your product, deep understanding of things ⁓ related to your products. The second is communication. As PMs, you have to be amazing at communication, whether it's a massive integration project like the Shipt and Target one, or even just

big launches that are gonna be announced through PR or even small scale ones.

Cristina Flaschen (32:51)

big launches that are going to be announced through PR or even small scale ones. The

gist is that over-communicating is better than under-communicating, finding the right mix for the right audience, the right seniority levels need different vantage points and details, but doing that and through communication, understanding, know, motivation.

Bani Malhotra (32:58)

Just is that over communicating is better than under communicating. ⁓ Finding the right mix for the right audience, the right seniority levels need different, you know, vantage points and details. But doing that and through communication, understanding, ⁓ you know, motivations of

Cristina Flaschen (33:20)

of your cross-functional partners, what goals are they trying to accomplish, all of

Bani Malhotra (33:20)

your cross-functional partners, what goals are they trying to accomplish, all of that.

Cristina Flaschen (33:25)

that. Communication basically helps you build relationships, build connections, understand, figure out motivations, all of that. And then the last, which is my favorite, which I think becomes really important as you go up in seniority, as well as the larger the org, the more important this is, is context.

Bani Malhotra (33:25)

Communication basically helps you build relationships, ⁓ build connections, ⁓ understand, figure out motivations, all of that. And then the last, which is my favorite, ⁓ which I think becomes really important as you go up in seniority, ⁓ as well as ⁓ the larger the org, the more important this is, is context.

Context I feel is the armor.

for the decisions that ⁓ you pick to stand behind. So context is business context, customer context, ⁓ competitive context, macroeconomic context, a context of the team, context of the process, context of the culture. ⁓ When you really understand and communicate, so federate out and consume context from the right set of stakeholders.

Cristina Flaschen (33:53)

the decisions that you pick to stand behind. So context is business context, customer context, competitive context, macro economic context, a context of the team, context of the process, context of the culture. When you really understand and communicate, so federate out and consume context from the right set of stakeholders,

Bani Malhotra (34:21)

It feeds into relationship, it feeds into

Cristina Flaschen (34:21)

it feeds into relationship requirements.

⁓

Bani Malhotra (34:23)

communication, it feeds into credibility. It

Cristina Flaschen (34:27)

It also allows you to build on the expertise of your stakeholders and vice versa. It also gives you the tools to handle conflict, to handle hard conversations. Context basically means that you are doing the hard work of learning about

Bani Malhotra (34:27)

also allows you to build on the expertise of your stakeholders and vice versa. It also gives you the tools to handle conflict, to handle hard conversations. Context basically means that you are doing the hard work of learning about

business beyond the scope of your work. So if I understand the context, the broader context of the business strategy, just like you were saying, like what is the non-star, what metrics should ladder up to the ultimate goal? If I don't have that context, then I will stick to add to cart. I will never think about the quality of add to cart and things like that. I think context, credibility and communication have always helped me in good stead.

Cristina Flaschen (34:49)

business beyond the scope of your work. So if I understand the context of the problem.

Bani Malhotra (35:16)

when I am trying to work, engage, partner, and align with my cross-functional partners.

Cristina Flaschen (35:22)

I love the framing of that. And I think, you know, as you become more trusted within an organization, like the requirement to explain that context, I think starts to like wane a little bit. Not that you don't want to have it yourself, but people start to just believe and understand that you have already put the thought into all of those things, especially when it comes to interpersonal stuff, right? Like if it's like, we're going to staff this project in this way. And it's because I have

Bani Malhotra (35:33)

Yes. Yes.

Yes.

Cristina Flaschen (35:49)

know, been out there working with these people, like I know who's excited about this, I know who, you know. There's just so much, like, things that are not really tangible that I think goes into being a great PM. I'm gonna steal that framing, I can't wait for this to come out and everyone to hear it. And on that note, I think we are running up on time here. This has been such a great conversation, I feel like we could do this forever. ⁓ Where can folks find you? Can they find you on LinkedIn?

Bani Malhotra (35:55)

Yeah. Yes. Yes.

Thank

Yeah.

LinkedIn is perfect.

Cristina Flaschen (36:16)

Amazing. Well, this has been awesome. I really appreciate you taking the time. Like really good chat. I bet again, we could do this forever. ⁓ For folks that are listening, if you want more content about product partnerships, integrations, all the things, you could check out our website, pandium.com. We've got a great blog. We've got all these podcasts, all kinds of worksheets, great stuff. Bonnie, thanks so much again. I'm sure I will see you out there and I hope you enjoy the rest of your day.

Bani Malhotra (36:22)

Yeah.

You too. Thank you so much for having me. Bye.

Cristina Flaschen (36:44)

Thanks

so much.